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O K, I’m going to ask a question, maybe more to follow, but the post Vince made got me thinking. The drift I get is there were discussions about multiple ribbons, or lack of, in masters at NCTA. (Since it got moved I can’t see it anymore) And I’m just wondering what people think the competition is about, and why you think it should be one way or another.
Since I don’t compete, or even do taxidermy, I’m a little bit of an outsider looking in, but with as much competing as Carol did in the past, along with some judging, I have a little insight in the process.
So here’s my feeling. The shows we have been at for the last 20 years or so have all seemed to be billed, pushed, promoted etc. as a place to come and learn. The competition has been sold as a learning event also; basically it was you against the score sheet (and at times the judge’s ego) in the pursuit of perfection. The idea was for you to learn from an experienced, talented and qualified individual, no matter what level you are competing at. The only real competition was you against yourself in this pursuit. With that being said, you are essentially getting a grade, and grades come with rewards, no limits on how many others can receive the same reward.
I know the world show only does a single ribbon masters, not sure about any others. So my feeling is a state show would be better serving their members with multiple ribbons in all categories to stay in line with what the shows are supposed to be about.
What do others think?
Keith I really haven’t said much about this but I will let you know why I think Multi Ribbons will help our or any association. First off all competitors want to be rewarded for their effort. Now that being said some would be fine with just a score sheet but some need something more like ribbons. When I started out competing it was me against a score sheet now I have alot of great friends that are great taxidermist and we push each other to get better, With that being said I know that sooner or later I would be the one that is on the bottom and will come home empty handed no matter how well I score because some of my friends will score 3 places higher. This is just my feelings about this and this is the way I see all of us learning and getting better.
Second I know how I feel about going to other state shows. I went to the Maryland show a couple weeks back and I was competiting against one of my good friends that is an awesome taxidermist. If Maryland had not had Multi Ribbons I would not have gone. IMO I think there is alot of competitors that feel the same way so I am hoping the Multi Ribbons at the NCTA will be more of a draw for out of staters to come to our show. The way I look at all of this we have some time to see if it works if not the membership can decide what needs to be done next.
I will have to agree with you on this Keith. I did not get to make the NCTA show this year and do not really know what was said at the meeting. I remember last year there was talk about it also. What good is it to have a master division if no one wants to move up because they know they may not get anything to show for their effort. If I remember and if I am wrong someone tell me, but I think Keith Bowman was the only one that had a deer in the Masters in 2011. Now what good is it to only have one or two deer or fish or bird or anything else for that matter to show up for the Masters. They already know they are going to win. I know that some of these guy’s may have moved up this year, but I think Tuggy, D.Price, Herman, and some others are good enough for Masters. But I could not blame them for not moving up if they have to go up against Vince, Keith, Chris, Scott and others every year and may not have anything to show for their hard work even if it is a two dollar ribbon. Look at it this way, if they only gave out three ribbons in the Pro division how many do you think would move up from the Amateur div. NONE! When I went to the Kentucky show last year they gave out multiple ribbons out in the masters and had more master pieces then the N.C. show did. The rule they have is if you get two best of category in one division you have to move up the next year in that category. I like that rule because it takes the thinking out of it. Yes we all want something to show for our hard work, but also we want to get better. The only way to do that is to compete with the best. So if we have multiple ribbons for the Masters then more people would be willing to move up. It may not be worth much but that is my thought. Gary C.
You don’t need to agree or disagree with me, I’m just curious about others feelings and opinions. I agree it’s human nature to want to have something to show for your efforts, and like Tuggy said, it can turn into a friendly competition between others you know, that’s what Carol had done years ago, at that point it wasn’t so much for a learning experience and when the others started fading out it took the fun out of it, so she quit competing.
In this same line, you want to give ribbons because it makes people come back, but how lenient should amateur be, and how much tougher should master be?
Mandatory bump up was going to be the next thread!
“To be the Man/Woman you have to beat th Man/Woman”. I understand this. I also see merit in both sides of this debate.
NCTA has (as far as I know) always had single 1,2,&3 ribbons in the Masters division. Now by vote of the members they will have multi ribbons in the division starting next year. NCTA this year initiated their “State Champion Awards” in several categories. This award can only be won in the masters division which effectively makes the winner “The Man/Woman”. The State Champion Award is now the ultimate goal to achieve as it is in any other state trade or sport. So…my query is “Do the new State Champion Awards at NCTA not make any other ribbons in the masters division a mute point”. The State Champ is the Top Gun and by creating this award and allowing multi ribbons in the masters division do you not serve the purpose of maintaining the importance of being “THE” best in your association and state while awarding others judged for some pretty sound work also.
Just something to ponder….in some ways it appears to be a win/win.
In the mean time see how it works and if it doesn’t address the matter again after a while.
Some very good post guys. Billy, I really like the way you said that. And thanks for all you have done for the NCTA and me.
I’ve just got my feet wet in competition. I’m gonna do my best next year. I’m going for blue but that critique is what I want the most. I want to be in masters two years from now.whether it happens like that or not I’m still gonna compete till I get it. Now I know once in masters I have a narrow window to place and competing against our master’s will be very difficult . But its not going to stop me. I think if there’s enough first year or two master’s you could have entry level master’s ribbons and a master’s ribbons .that way entry level would be competing basically against each other and ribbon. Like I said I’m new. I love competing. Thats my two cents.
I compete solely to improve my commercial work, thats what i compete with and always will, don’t have the time to really go for it all.The critiques is what i pay for when i enter could care less about those pretty colored ribbons my clients don’t care
Billy was kind of in my line of thinking, but what about making a seperate division only open to those who have won a BOC masters in the past. Would that satisfy the people who would like a single ribbon masters, and still encourage others to enter by offering a multiple? Joe and Hackleback and others said it in both this thread and another, they use it to learn, which would lend itself to a multiple ribbon format wouldn’t it? I know Ohio and I beleive Indiana call the best master the state champion like Billy is talking about, but would the seperate category make it even more of an honor, for those that truly are there to see if they can win it all? People in masters can still learn a lot from a good judge!
Alright, time for my two cents.
I was one of the guys that helped get the masters div started in NC. The original plan was that we wouldn’t have many competitors, so to justify the cost, only single ribbons would be used. With the exception of the bird guys, I can’t remember if we’ve ever had more than 2 or 3 entries in the other catagories. I’ve always liked the idea of single ribbons. That 1st place guy was the man to beat in order to reach the pinnacle of taxidermy competition! Many of us in NC, travel to the NTA or the World Shows. The single ribbon competition was a way to let us know if we were ready for it, or at least getting close.
BUT, as a judge and competitor at other state shows, I’ve come to realize something. The other shows have many more out of state competitors than we do. Why? Not sure. But i do know this… In January of this year, the wildlife commision told me they issued 1,008 taxidermy licenses. And the NCTA has 93 members. Those are terrible numbers. We’ve tried everything to reach out to these people to get them to come. But they won’t. So maybe we can reach out to our out of state neighbors. But do they really want to come and compete against Vince, Chris, Keith, Mark, Gene, Dennis, and the list goes on and on and on. We’ve got a whole lot of talent in this state. They might would like something to show for there effort to travel and support our show. They still have to beat the best to win the state champ title. Dennis was right at the meeting when he said we are supposed to be about education. But who are we gonna educate if we can’t keep enough people coming to pay for the show? I love the NCTA. And I wouldn’t be where I am today in business without them, period. So if adding multiple ribbons will keep the people coming, I’m all for it, now. I’d hate to see the NCTA dwindle away.
Personally, I compete for the fun of it. Nothing like going up against your friends in the comp room. Sometimes you beat them, and sometimes you don’t. But I still have fun just the same. And if they teach me something new, all the better.
And if you want to keep the (beat the best to be the best attitude), that’s fine. Just add a MASTER of MASTERS division. But in this one, all competitors are in the same division. The fish, birds, deer, reptiles, and mammals in a free-for-all for the top single award, Master of Masters. No 2nd place and no 3rd place. That should be fun. I’d be in it for sure!!
That would definately be a feather in the cap to do it that way Page.
Page I was thinking of the same thing. That would be a great idea but could the ones that enter the masters of master still enter something in masters?
Sure. You could enter the regular divisions for the state titles with different pieces. But the Master of Masters piece can only win that title and would be eligible for any peoples choice awards along with the Wasco and other judges choice. Maybe keep the Breakthrough for the regular masters.
I agree with what you said Page but for right now IMO we may need to wait a little while to see how everything else works out first. Just like spliting the bird division and multi ribbons I think we give this a test run and see if it will increases the amount of mounts in comp room and if so keep adding on new divisions if that is what the membership wants. Thats just my 2 cents worth:)
The only problem I can see with the master of masters setup is the difference between judging the different category’s, and the “forwardness” of a particular judge. You see it in different awards now, it’s a little tough to judge cross category pieces. I’d think seperate category’s would work out better, just basic categories, W.T, gamehead, l. s. mammal, bird and fish. You already have the judges choice best of show for your other one anyway.
They could easily take the top score from the different catagories, discuss their pros and cons, then have a secret ballot for the winner. That should help to even out the harder judges from the more leanient judges.
With one judges choice, best of show here in Ohio for years I saw it work both ways Page. (I’m not even sure if they have that award anymore) There were times a judge lobbied real hard for his category, and there were times when a judge had a really strong piece that deserved it, and really didn’t care, so they just went along with what others said. I don’t believe it was a secret ballot though, it was a group discussion. When they went to a best in each category I think they might have done away with the single best of show. We were no longer on the board at that time, and she had quit competeing, so I haven’t paid quite as much attention. I know the cross category judges choice did cause it’s share of grumbling! Just a forewarning!
